Speeding Fine

[alexwebster]

Hey guys,

This is primarily a question for Phil but thought I would post it as many of you may have a similar question.

I received a speeding fine last week and did not think that it was me. Anyways I got the photo and there I am along with 4 other cars in the shot.

It was on Nepean hwy in seafood which has two lanes in each direction.

From our 'speed camera class' many moons ago that Phil held, I thought that I remembered that the cameras only go across two lanes and not four.

I was in the third lane from the camera which was on the nature strip.

Keen for comments as to if I could contest it.

[Fishcop]

Alex, I'm a former Victorian copper and an authorised user of the products Phil distributes in Queensland. We use them for speed detection on the water. I also manage the environmental penalty infringement program in Qld.

I am not a lawyer and cannot give legal advice

A principle you may find useful: Government is required to present evidence to satisfy a court "beyond a reasonable doubt" that person is guilty; a defendant is required to provide information "on the balance of probability" to satisfy a court that they are not guilty (defendant always gets the benefit of the doubt).

As I understand it, Vicpol no longer administer traffic camera offences in Victoria, but you need to get your hands on the relevant operator and policy documents relating to the use of the cameras applicable to your offence. They should be available.

Those documents will identify how the camera works, what it is capable of, and how it must be set up and used. I am pretty sure you'll find the latest tech is more than capable of managing multiple lanes of traffic travelling in either direction (away from camera or towards camera). However there should be policy on what the administering authority will pursue and what they won't, this includes speed error margins, multiple lanes, weather etc... My guess is you'll be SOOL and the cameras are being operated in accordance with standards.

You can request testing logs to see when cameras were last tested and calibrated, but you're up against "the system" which ensures i's are dotted and t's are crossed...

Contesting a traffic ticket is big business and high risk stakes. Government are addicted to fine money - they fight tooth an nail to cut out loop-holes or anything that may offer a person a free exit. Any time they lose a precident is created and massive machinery is put in place to close the hole for the next person. You need to have a unique reason to fight your ticket, and unique reasons are fast running out! The normal tactic is to exhaust your resolve and financial position until you fold. Only you can weigh your position and just how hard you want to fight.

Rather than "fighting", you may be better of with a well worded letter requesting review of the infringement notice. Ask about whether the multiple lanes and direction of travel effects your situation. Here's a trick... If you have NEVER received a penalty infringement notice for traffic offence and the speed detected is only slightly over the speed limit, you can ask for an official warning - you'll only ever get one, but if the policy is still the same (been a long time since I was there) you should get the pecuniary amount waived.

I'll leave it to Phil to comment on the technical aspects of speed detection instruments and equipment

[hmd]

Here's a trick... If you have NEVER received a penalty infringement notice for traffic offence and the speed detected is only slightly over the speed limit, you can ask for an official warning - you'll only ever get one, but if the policy is still the same (been a long time since I was there) you should get the pecuniary amount waived.

I can vouch for this circa 2009

[Paul W]

Great answer John, though the only thing I can take away from it is you'd be a great person to know during Race Week in the Whitsundays :p

[Fishcop]

I was normally at race week

Well, up until a few years ago when we moved from Townsville back to SE Qld... Now I get my thrills with a quick trip to Phillip Islandl for the historics.

[e72phil]

Alex, I presume the ticket was issued using a Gatso slant radar device which is an across the road radar system and it is capable of covering up to 4 lanes.

I assume you have requested a larger copy of the photo or have viewed it at the traffic Camera office ?? (which is your right).

Adjudicators inspect each photo applying an overlay which shows the extent and coverage of teh radar beam and which car was in its beam and being measured at teh time. even if there are other cars in the photo, they would have been checked to see if they could also have been "in the beam".

The problems with slant radar can be they have not been setup correctly, ie: was the camera vehicle parallel to the road way so that the beam was in fact at the required 20 deg angle across the road ? What was in the background in your photo ? Do you know that this location is consistently used by a speed camera vehicle (therefore any arguments about bouncing off metal signs or mesh fences have been dismissed).


You can take John susggestion to write the appropriate letter to Sgt Ritchie (he still signs the notices doesnt he ?) and request leiency. of course it all depends on your current record. If the speed was high and there is significant risk to your licence, its your call.

We have seen recent cases where defendants spent upwards of $90,000 to defend a $500 ticket (and lost). A South Australian MP has argued against our lasers all the way to the Supreme Court and still lost. You really need a legitimate case to argue if you have discovered a significant error in the prosecution case but this usually takes some time, effort and money to investigate.

If its a legitimate spped they claim and if they have you fair square, best thing is to cop it or write the letter John suggested.

Sorry if I sound negative but the easiest way to beat speed fines is to drive at or under the speed limit. Works every time.

Maybe its time for a new "info" night on speed cameras etc ?

[KDF]

Give http://www.aussiespeedingfines.com/ a go?

Hi Alex,

I haven't joined them, yet but a friend of mine has - and he says it works?

I had a red light infringement just prior to talking to him in an ex bosses work ute and all you could see in the picture was the back of the ute.

After many letters and stat. dec. the court refused to hear the case and I still had to pay the fine, got the points and lost my license.

There is the "presumed innocent until proven beyond reasonable doubt" BS for you.

When I complaint about that, I was told traffic law is diffrent to criminal law....

Give it a shot Alex and fight it with all you got!

[Fishcop]

I won't pour petrol on a fire, and I know fines really polarise people (I actually really hate speed camera use as I believe they have crossed into the realm of genuine revenue raising).

But traffic law is different, as it lawfully deems the registered owner responsible for an offence - it presumes you're the responsible driver until you adequately demonstrate you're not responsible through a statutory declaration etc... But your stat dec must contain relevant details and not just "It wasn't me".

Marty, it sounds like you dealt with the camera authority/police only and not a Magistrates' Court, a court will never reject a plea (except in certain legal situations). Your case MUST be presented before court if you fill out the court election - this is Australia wide without exception. This is where the term "innocent until proven guilty" comes from and where any statutory authority has to do the hard work to succeed in a prosecution.

By the way, payment of a fine is an expedition of law and not an admission of guilt - you can never get a "record" by paying fines.

[roland paterson]

Fine

Im proud to say I got off losing points last year....
I am low on points.

I nominated my wife and paid the fine. I then sent a letter a couple of days later saying that the nomination was incorrect and I infact didn't know who was driving my car at the time of the offence as we were ferrying attendees from a wedding back and fourth and nobody knew who was the driver at that particular time.

I was in a 356 with a big back window - surprised they didn't check out the photo....

They took the money and I did not loose any points.

A first for me.

[e72phil]

Dont waste your time with Aussie Speeding fines and his e-book. Total waste of money. The police laugh at these letters he suggests you write.

And speed cameras only raise evenue when you drive above the limit. Drive below and you dont pay. Could it be more simple ?

Its just that not enough people pay attentiomn to their driving. I tell my kids that their car is a lethal weapon easily capable of killing every time they use it.

Most of the members here are indeed interested in driving and do pay attention to operating their vehicle properly and safely, sadly, many other drivers dont - and pay the consequences - monetary or physical.

[hmd]

speed camera use as I believe they have crossed into the realm of genuine revenue raising.

I believe 'Speed Camera is not a revenue raising exercise' when they don't have their revenue in the state budget.

[e72phil]

How does everyone feel about Parking Fines. These revenues also get reported in council budgets. Is it OK to speed a little but not overstay your parking space time limit ?

Sorry if I get on a high horse about speed cameras etc but I get pretty annoyed about how the media influences everyones thinking about speed cameras and never bothers to retract stories when they are blatantly wrong.

Nobody ever wants to admit they are speeding, but they usually are when they get caught.

In my extensive experience on this subject, and talking to police all around Australia, motorists will drive to a threshold, not a speed limt. that threshold being what they think they can get away with or what they USED to get away with. in one state they (artificially) lowered their capture threshold on cameras by one KPH and increased infringement numbers by 15 - 20% . No fines were issued, it was a statistical exercise.

There is a good sign down in Tassie on a highway showing a 100 KPH speed sign and noting: "Its a limit, not a suggestion".

The threshold in VIC is only 3 KPH but with a further applicable tolerance of what ever the "measurement uncertainty " of the particular device used is. Thus a speed camera ticket in VIC gives a "detected speed" and an "alleged speed", usually 2 KPH below the detected speed which automatically accounts for the speed camera tolerance as stated by the manufacturer.

Other states such as WA claim detected and alleged to be the same speed and give you the opportunity in court to argue about uncertainties.

Can I ask those members here with young children if they change their behaviour when driving about with the baby in the car ? Possibly the wife often reminds you if she feels uneasy about road speeds ??

Thats why I find it amusing sometimes reading about what car to buy as the new "family wagon". All the guys here still want the R,RS, GT, AMG or performance version of what ever model the wife likes.

parenthood always puts a different perspective on these sorts of choices, and, I guess, driver behaviour.

I'll get off the soapbox now.....

and back to designing our new speed camera.

[hmd]

I feel the same about parking fines.

They are both required as a deterrence. HOWEVER once you start to have budget and quotas and needing to fulfill the quotas then it become a revenue raising exercise.

[e72phil]

But tickets are only written when you breach the parking terms and conditions which are usually there to allow other road users to find a parking place.

How annoyed would you be if there was no policing of parking places and everyone abused the system because there was no deterrent ?

Same way you probably feel about someone rear ending you who was tailgating you, speeding and txting on a mobile.

[KDF]

I won't pour petrol on a fire, and I know fines really polarise people (I actually really hate speed camera use as I believe they have crossed into the realm of genuine revenue raising).

But traffic law is different, as it lawfully deems the registered owner responsible for an offence - it presumes you're the responsible driver until you adequately demonstrate you're not responsible through a statutory declaration etc... But your stat dec must contain relevant details and not just "It wasn't me".

Marty, it sounds like you dealt with the camera authority/police only and not a Magistrates' Court, a court will never reject a plea (except in certain legal situations). Your case MUST be presented before court if you fill out the court election - this is Australia wide without exception. This is where the term "innocent until proven guilty" comes from and where any statutory authority has to do the hard work to succeed in a prosecution.

By the way, payment of a fine is an expedition of law and not an admission of guilt - you can never get a "record" by paying fines.

Hi there,

well, I am no expert on all this legal mumbo jumbo as my native tongue is German.
I have a letter here from the magistrates court stating that:
"the enforcement order in your case has been revoked and has ceased to have effect.
FURTHER NOTE that the Enforcement Agency has requested non-prosecution of this infringement offence and as such, the matter will not be referred to court."

I thought that I was off the hook, but they kept sending me infringement notices where I had to nominate a driver which I couldn't.
It wasn't my car and I am 90% sure I wasn't the driver. There were at l,east 5 other potential drivers of the ute, but I was the only one that has left the company recently.
I was told since my boss has nominated me (without any evidence as there was no log book policy in place) the onus was on me to PROVE that someone else was driving? How am I to do that after more than a year of letters going back and forth....