Porsche Carrera GT unsafe?

[KDF]

Hi all,

picking up from what Mark posted on the chat, what are the views on the Carrera GT and Paul Walker's Death?

http://jalopnik.com/porsche-is-being...ath-1575430490

As stupid as it seems to blame Porsche for the unfortunate death of these two people who obviously pushed the car to hard for the road they where on, is it an unsafe design with the tank in front of the passenger/driver?

There is also mention of a memo from Porsche North America that states the car can sustain serious damage by just driving over a full beer can on its side (the beer can, that is) and that law enforcement agencies have not concluded the reason for the accident but they are definitely looking at the role of Botts’ Dots?

I can't recall anyone complaining about the beetle having the tank in the front as being an unsafe design?





Couldn't the same happen with a gas tank behind the seats when the light pole is hit at the right angel and the "wrong" speed and cut the car in half?


Here are some 'expert' interviews I found:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkXU4W8UDRs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwr0ixQa4tI

There is evidence of people walking away from serious crashes and AFAIK all international crash tests and laws have been passed?

http://www.theimproper.com/porsche-c...acy-crashes/6/

[griffiths_r]

Clutching at straws in my mind...

[Fishcop]

On the face of it, you'd imagine it will be a difficult fight...

Porsche (big reputation and resources to protect itself), built a car that passed all accepted standards and engineering tests to be driven in a road environment, presumably in realworld situations where trees, curbs, changing road surfaces, road rules and driver experience must all be factored in...

A single vehicle collision occurs where ALL statutory investigative entities involved conclude and report to the coroner that it occured as a result of excessive speed for the road conditions - essentially driver error. The error includes a failure of the driver to risk manage the machine's capability (speed) in the context of the environment being operated within (bumpy roads, trees and curbs). One can then factor in other statutory risk management issues such as exceeding the recommended speed limit for the location.

You'd think that the investigation would be of a very high calibre. It was a high profile incident involving a high profile manufacurer and high profile people. It is also the USA and people like to litigate in the USA, investigators know this. The USA is a first world country possessing some of the best testing equipment and laboratories at its disposal. The investigators involved would be highly specialised collision specialists who would recognise and test for material failures, systems failures, structural design failures and compare and contrast with other recorded incidents involving the same model of car. There is no suggestion of mechanical or system failure reported to the coroner.

Driver of the vehicle is a highly qualified race car operator, who it can be argued, understood the physics of operating a high performance car in an environment that is not a closed racing circuit usually consisting of smooth asphalt, correctly radiused and cambered corners, and (critically) run-off space...

I understand the injuries sustained to both occupants were ultimately life terminating despite the horrific addition of a fire.

Truly there will be only two significant winners; prosecuting counsel and defending counsel.

[e72phil]

Ambulance chasing lawyers.......

or should I say, Hearse chasing ?

Definitely Too fast and Too Furious seemed to be the cause of it all.

[patrick911]

I just don't understand the need to always try to find someone else to blame in stead of accepting responsibility.

The scary thing about this is that you will always find something wrong - if you search long enough.

Sorry, not really related to your question, i know.

[Merv]

"I can't recall anyone complaining about the beetle having the tank in the front as being an unsafe design?"

That was Ralph Nader's point in his famous attack on the VW and Corvair, calling for their removal from sale.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1955&dat=19710913&id=ncctAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1JcFAAAAIBAJ&pg=4044,1944403

[KDF]

Hey Merv,

interesting article.Thanks for sharing.

I suppose the Beetle was an almost 50 year old design in the 70thies and he probably had a point that it wasn't up to scratch when compared to period cars?

Until now I heard about this nutter only in relation to Porsches rear engines and convertibles.

Isn't he the one that basically made them come up with the TARGA concept?

Would be interesting to hear what he has to say about the Carrer GT, than? Probably advocating Porsche pulling them all of the streets at resale value.....

Samples from other website:

-- Garrison v. Porsche arose out of the death of a husband and father who was a passenger in a Turbo 930 when the driver lost control on a city street and went into oncoming traffic. The jury awarded $2.5 million, which was upheld on appeal. The 1983 award tied the verdict for the death of Audie Murphy, a war hero and actor, for the largest wrongful-death verdict in California. Following the Garrison verdict, Porsche started offering driver's training to purchasers of its high-performance, turbocharged vehicles.

-- Trent v. Porsche arose out of the death of a husband and father when the Turbo 930 over steered and collided with a telephone pole. The case settled for a confidential amount.

But the most relevant case began on June 5, 2005, when driver Ben Keaton and passenger Corey Rudl, at the time a top Internet marketing executive, were killed in a crash at Auto Club Speedway in California while lapping during a Ferrari Club track day. A Ferrari pulled onto the track, and Keaton made an evasive maneuver, ending up hitting a concrete barrier at about 100 mph.

There were multiple defendants -- the track, the club, the Ferrari driver, and even the estate of Keaton, because Keaton “failed to inform Rudl that he had been having handling problems with the Porsche, and that he had a recent incident where he lost control of the car.” Which, of course, happens at track days multiple times an hour, but apparently that was significant.

Porsche was, of course, named in the suit. Said a McClellan press release quoting the lawyer, “The expensive sports car was not equipped with Electronic Stability Control, a life-saving safety feature which would have prevented Mr. Rudl's death.”

McClellan got a $4.5 million settlement for the family of already-millionaire Rudl two years after the crash, but Porsche was on the hook for only 8 percent of it -- $360,000, or $80,000 less than the Porsche Carrera GT cost new. Keaton's family (49 percent) and the track and organizers (41 percent) were responsible for most of the settlement. But the precedent is there, and established by McClellan, in the minds of many Californians.

Elements of a potential case are still developing. One possibility: CNN is reporting that the fire that engulfed the car did not begin until 60 seconds after the crash. Does the location of the fuel filler make the car more susceptible to a fire after a crash? And would it have mattered to Walker and Rodas? Was there a mechanical failure? Did a tire deflate? Did the steering fail?

Or was Rodas just driving a high-performance car at a speed beyond his ability? We still don't know. Despite a growing trend in the aftermath that seems determined to label the Carrera GT as the most undriveable, dangerous car ever unleashed on enthusiasts, that reputation is rapidly becoming overblown. And these guys were on the street, not on the limit constantly -- lap after lap -- around a racetrack, which is what pro drivers are talking about when they have commented about how tricky the Porsche is to drive. They aren't talking about driving it through a neighborhood.

Yet anybody who thinks a lawsuit will allege that Rodas just lost it in a 600-hp midengine car, and there was no fault on the part of Porsche, the tire company, the seat belt manufacturer, the guys who paved the road in the office park, the person who planted the tree the car hit -- raise your hand.

Nobody? Thought so.

[Merv]

yes Nader was a presidential candidate in the two elections before the last one. He remains active in the US and many great docos have been done on his work - much of it positive. He even wrote a famous book about the Beetle, called "Small". In the case of the Corvair he was successful in its withdrawal.

[KDF]

on Rennlist

Hey all,

Ok, doesn't seem to be as straight forward and clean cut than, this issue?

http://www.sportscarmarket.com/colum...or-4-5-million

The article includes this passage:

"The sole claim against Porsche was that the CGT was defective because it was designed without electronic stability control, which Porsche calls PSM. McClellan (the lawyer) deposed two German engineers on the subject, and their answers were inconsistent. One testified that Porsche did not think that its PSM system would work on the CGT because the car's frame structure and suspension mountings would create strong vibrations that would interfere with its operation. The other engineer testified that PSM was not offered because the customers didn't want it. McClellan suspects it was a marketing decision, as the CGT was marketed as a 'race car for the streets,' and race cars don't have electronic stability control. He notes that during its development, the CGT had exhibited a tendency to oversteer during high lateral acceleration. Porsche made some adjustments, but did not fully correct the problem, which explained why the mechanic who drove Keaton's car reported 'handling problems.' PSM would have corrected the 'tail happy' oversteer response to Keaton's steering input to avoid the Ferrari."

To be precise, the Carrera GT does have 'Traction Control' (TC) to prevent wheel spinning under acceleration. But it doesn't have 'Electronic Stability Control' (ESC), also referred to as electronic stability program (ESP) or dynamic stability control (DSC). That was also true for the .1 997 gt3 and .1 997 gt3 RS. Porsche decided to include both (ESC & TC), in what they called PSM, for the .2 997 gt3, RS, and 4.0 - perhaps as the result of the issues raised in this legal case and the fact that Porsche was held partially responsible!

We will have to wait and see what the results are of the crash investigation into the accident involving this Carrera GT with Roger and Paul. But I suspect these same legal issues, related to the lack of 'Electronic Stability Control' in this 558-horsepower Carrera GT sports car, will be revisited in this case.