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Aussie delivered vs. Stuttgart built ?

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    Aussie delivered vs. Stuttgart built ?

    I have been having several recent conversations about cars for sale and the old Aussie delivery subject, and its corresponding effect on price and desirability of used cars on the market.

    Seems there have been some recent high priced sales of early cars where condition and Aussie delivery have helped command very high prices.

    One thing a lot of buyers seem to forget is that ALL Porsches were built in the same place (now lets not split hairs about Karmann bodies and Stuttgart bodies shall we ?). I think we are getting to the stage now where these cars can be all put into the same category of being "old" and its should be condition that starts to dictate the true value of these cars.

    With most of these cars now around 35 years old, there are bound to be lots of potentially hidden issues when buying a used one. The stamp in the delivery book hardly equates to any guarantee the car will be rust free or in good mechanical condition.

    And I get back to always asking the question of potential byers - "What do you want to do with the car ? Drive it, or look at it ?"

    Oddly enough, these cars were built to be driven, and driven hard. every owner will tell you how much better they run after a good hard run in one. And thats how good 'ol Ferry designed them and how the engineers built them.

    We want to see this club grow and for new members to acquire cars and enjoy their driving experience. I hope that buyers can remain realistic in their expectations, or they will sadly find themselves priced out of the market because they held their expectations way too high - and just watched as prices steadily increased.

    Will be interested to read other comments on these thoughts.
    sigpicPhil Lack
    TYP901 Register Inc. # 002 (Founding President)
    Early 911-S Registry # 690
    R-Gruppe # 367
    '72 911E 2.4 Coupe (SOLD)
    '15 MB CLA 250 Sport Shooting Brake - daily
    2012 BMW 1M Coupe 6-spd (for sale)
    1974 FIAT 124 Sport coupe

    #2
    Phil,

    To me the Aust delivery equates to a car that has likely been driven on roads that are not salted etc during a snowy winter as you would find with a Euro / UK import.

    The same argument appears to exists in the US where 'Californian' cars are seen to be a better buy due to the conditions they are kept / driven in.

    I imported a '71 MGB GT V8 from the UK a few years ago (yes shame on me) and despite careful inspection, the dreaded tin worm appeared after a while.

    I guess no car is immune from rust regardless of where its from, it boils down to how well its looked after by its owner/s, so be careful get an inspection and do your research thoroughly whatever you buy. Spend about $10k more than you think you should, and then be prepared to spend more, as you said these cars are getting on a bit and to some extent will likely need something fixed after you buy.
    Cam Arnott
    Looking for engine #6208151
    1970 911E (Sold)
    '71 911 S/T Replica 2.3 (Sold)
    2 x Split Screen Kombis
    TYP 901 Register # 78
    Early S Registry # 1076

    Comment


      #3
      Cameron, you are right in that you will always have to spend some more than expected, but a really thorough PPI where some knowledgeable spends at least 2-3 hours taking a god look at the car is such a good investment, even if you dont buy the car. its not "wasted" money to find out early about all the problems.

      When I was buying a boat, I hauled it out and had a marine surveyor inspect it, - all up costs over $1200, but would you want to risk buying it cause it was nice and shiny without such a check ??

      Rust can and does happen even out here in Oz. Where you live foe example, gets heaps of rain and is a very steamy, humid environment. Leaky windscreen seals will lead to rust without proper attention. It happens to old cars where rubber gets hard and brittle.
      sigpicPhil Lack
      TYP901 Register Inc. # 002 (Founding President)
      Early 911-S Registry # 690
      R-Gruppe # 367
      '72 911E 2.4 Coupe (SOLD)
      '15 MB CLA 250 Sport Shooting Brake - daily
      2012 BMW 1M Coupe 6-spd (for sale)
      1974 FIAT 124 Sport coupe

      Comment


        #4
        Phil to me the statement that "most of these cars now around 35 years old, there are bound to be lots of potentially hidden issues when buying a used one. " is absolutely spot on.

        However the way I see it that is a strong reason to buy an Australian delivered car - maybe not any one because condition and history are essential.

        Cameron has mentioned one part with the "known conditions" which can cause problems are not present (or for a California car either so long as it has been there all of its life). this does not guarantee a good car but gives a better than even chance that rust (which is the main worry) is less likely to be present in as big an amount. That doesn't mean that an Australian car might not be full of it - it could have been parked on a beach for most of its life. Also a UK or European car that has been here most of its life and maybe has had a full strip and rebuild here would be a different proposition - to me it is about assessing the hidden risk factors.

        The other part that cannot be underestimated is the ready availability of a service record. With a 30+ year old car a full or even 10 to 20 year continuous service record with details of what has been done and when is a major part of assessing whether or not a car is worth paying these large amounts of money for. With an Australian delivered car you are more likely to get this. With car that has been delivered elsewhere and lived in Australia for most of its life this will exist as well. But for a car straight off the boat - who knows? - and it is not easy to get info even if you do know who serviced it.

        So that is my take on it - it is not the Australian delivery per se but the extra confidence you can get in the condition and future problems with the car - after all they are all over 30 now (with the possible exception of Clyde's Targa which is almost a brand new car but better :lol: :lol: ) so no one should be looking at them as you would a new car - you must assess condition and risks. That is not to say that Australian delivery is a magic solution - it is not but it allows the possibility to reduce the risks mentioned above and provide relatively easy access to history that may assist the making of an informed purchase decision. That said it also applies to long term Australian residents delivered initially overseas as well
        Hugh Hodges
        1973 E
        Australian TYP 901 Register #005
        Early 911S Register #776

        Comment


          #5
          Phil

          I agree an inspection by an independent expert is the way to go, and had our car inspected before we purchased.

          A second or third opinion is a great way to help calm that rush of blood to head when contemplating a car purchase and give you an objective assessment. :shock:

          It's all too easy to just plunge in in the heat of the moment, and cost yourself unnecessary pain and worry.
          ops:
          Cam Arnott
          Looking for engine #6208151
          1970 911E (Sold)
          '71 911 S/T Replica 2.3 (Sold)
          2 x Split Screen Kombis
          TYP 901 Register # 78
          Early S Registry # 1076

          Comment


            #6
            Phil what is the point to this post?
            Apart from when buying a car CHECK it out properly,surely this is too bloody obvious.
            Obviously also in your opinion a LHD car is far superior to a RHD car, this is total bull**** as has been noted above all these cars are built in the same place. So how can there be so much difference between them?

            We all know you have a vested interest in LHD cars, please STOP this discussion re LHD verses RHD as it has been done to DEATH and MANY PEOPLE ARE GETTING VERY TIRED OF IT AS THE DOZENS OF PHONE CALLS WE ARE GETTING ARE ESTIMATE TO!!!!

            Comment


              #7
              naughty words

              Mike

              You really should not use words like "Bull****" and "bloody" in the posts - I thought we had the "naughty word police" automated but it is either on strike or was turned off when the posting problem happened and is not working

              Can everyone please restrain themselves from such sentiments until we get it sorted out

              Your friendly moderator
              Hugh Hodges
              1973 E
              Australian TYP 901 Register #005
              Early 911S Register #776

              Comment


                #8
                Hugh,

                I agree with your comments about service history, one I should have included because this can be just as critical. And you're right, chasing down a service agent half way around the world can be difficult, although email makes this a lot easier these days.

                Members should be conscious of inspecting ANY records available. itemised invoices are always far better than a stamp in a service book that says "Jiffy Lube" . I have seen some amazing service records on early cars with very high mileage but felt confident they got looked after.

                My cars in for its 5000 mile oil & filter change tomorrow which is probably about the simplest and effective maintenance you can do with early cars.
                sigpicPhil Lack
                TYP901 Register Inc. # 002 (Founding President)
                Early 911-S Registry # 690
                R-Gruppe # 367
                '72 911E 2.4 Coupe (SOLD)
                '15 MB CLA 250 Sport Shooting Brake - daily
                2012 BMW 1M Coupe 6-spd (for sale)
                1974 FIAT 124 Sport coupe

                Comment


                  #9
                  Mike,

                  it appears that, like you, I have had many recent phone conversations with people looking for info about buying an early car.

                  I was using this forum (as it was intended for) to continue an open discussion about these cars for many of the lookers who are interested to buy. there are many who dont post here but do review the board looking for info about these cars.

                  I have had so many comments recently about "Aussie delivered " from a lot of people who I know just have no idea about actually how few cars there are to choose from.

                  Its becoming a supply and demand situation as evident by the escalating prices of cars - hence the need for more detailed inspections pre purchase, a fact that no doubt would interest you.

                  as regards LHD and RHD cars, the simple fact of the matter is that there are far more LHD cars out there (whether in Australia or overseas) and for those on a budget, this is possibly their only alternative to find something affordable. Several of our member's are indeed actively looking offshore to find a suitable car. Clyde and I have been more than happy to provide advice regarding this as well as some local contacts in California to assist with their search.


                  AND YOU CAN STOP SHOUTING.
                  sigpicPhil Lack
                  TYP901 Register Inc. # 002 (Founding President)
                  Early 911-S Registry # 690
                  R-Gruppe # 367
                  '72 911E 2.4 Coupe (SOLD)
                  '15 MB CLA 250 Sport Shooting Brake - daily
                  2012 BMW 1M Coupe 6-spd (for sale)
                  1974 FIAT 124 Sport coupe

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Personally, I dont find (cowdung) and (bl:#%dy) at all offensive. I know this is a family club but I too have sub-teen kids, and I know they are savvy enough to see the occasional swear word in print without being permanently damaged by it.

                    We are an Australian Board, if you read the Macquarie Dictionary you will find these words and ratherly more extreme have become part of the established lexicon. You can even see the f%#k word in the Sydney Morning Herald every other day if you look not too hard.

                    Really and truly, who are the naughty word police - did Queen Victoria appoint them?

                    I actually agree with Mike, there have been a preponderance of posts about LHD being better/more true to the original design etc, and I think everyone is probably aware of the issues and agendas by now. The fact is some are happy with either, some prefer one to the other. For the record I am entrenched in the RHD camp.

                    Now I am going to go to the corner and severely chastise myself.

                    tonyc

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by TonyC
                      Personally, I dont find (cowdung) and (bl:#%dy) at all offensive. I know this is a family club but I too have sub-teen kids, and I know they are savvy enough to see the occasional swear word in print without being permanently damaged by it.

                      We are an Australian Board, if you read the Macquarie Dictionary you will find these words and ratherly more extreme have become part of the established lexicon. You can even see the f%#k word in the Sydney Morning Herald every other day if you look not too hard.

                      Really and truly, who are the naughty word police - did Queen Victoria appoint them?

                      tonyc
                      The rationale of limiting the use of expletives is not that the words in themselves are all that offensive (although some restricted ones are) but that without the full use of such words members are somewhat limited in turning this forum into a place where people don't respect other members and their opinions. Words set the tone for the forum.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        RHD for me

                        Team,

                        I've seen this thread for a while and wish to add my 1 DM's worth.

                        A child of the motor trade, my father being a Mercedes-Benz dealer, I was always vehrmently discouraged from ever even considering a non-Australian delivery non RHD car: any make, any model.

                        Resale-ability, the introduction of late '70s Aus compliance plates, register-abilty interstate and suitabilty of in-situ use being the main drivers here.

                        Non-Aus delivery, non RHD would never permeate my thinking on a car, racing specials excepted.

                        I can however see the value of a LHD car, just "not for me".

                        Our early 911's are fantastic, whatever hue, driving seat, engine or spec they come in.

                        Lets not loose sight of this.....like a party at a friend house, the more the merrier. For example, our local 356 community is much richer as a result of the added ex-USA import diversity.....again, just not for me.

                        Cheers

                        Stew.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          this "debate" has been going on for some time and is generating lots of posts but mainly from the same people.

                          a couple of different people have posted their views tonight but on my (maybe fading) recollection the numbers of people (as opposed to numbers of posts) willing to step up for a LHD car seems limited versus those who would stick with a RHD one. The biggest category however seem to be the lookers - not commentators.

                          I would have thought that almost everyone on this board would have an opinion - even if it is "i am not interested in this debate" so I have created a poll to see if we can get an idea where the numbers are on this issue.

                          It would be nice to see if we can get a wide crossection of opinion or at least votes. You don't have to add a comment unless you want to and although I am making no promises about my ability to use the technology, I believe this poll is anonymous


                          I have not added an Australian delivery option. If this poll draws out views on the LHD /RHD issue maybe then we can look at the less relevant Au st delivery or not question
                          Hugh Hodges
                          1973 E
                          Australian TYP 901 Register #005
                          Early 911S Register #776

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Its a bit cloudy here in Sydney today, how is the weather in Melbourne?

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Hot and steamy Shane.
                              Clyde Boyer
                              TYP 901 Register Inc.
                              President
                              Early S Register Member #294

                              Comment

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